The USCJ's Magen Tzedek--is it a viable initiative?
Taking a hint from commenter JDub's complaint yesterday that I've been kvetching/griping too much about "groups with which I don't affiliate," I now return you to my usual sponsor, the Conservative Movement.
The New York Jewish Week published this article about the United Synagogue of Conservative Judaism's new Magen Tzedek initiative, an attempt to establish verifiable standards of ethics and environmental responsibility for kosher food businesses.
The New York Jewish Week published this article about the United Synagogue of Conservative Judaism's new Magen Tzedek initiative, an attempt to establish verifiable standards of ethics and environmental responsibility for kosher food businesses.
I think Magen Tzedek is a wonderful idea, but, as with the healthcare proposals currently under consideration by the US Congress, there's the question of who's going to pay for it.
What's your opinion of Magen Tzedek (roughly, the Seal of Righteousness), and do you think it will sell? Would you pay extra for an already-more-expensive kosher product that also had a "justice certification?"
posted by Shira Salamone at 12:52 PM
20 Comments:
Is the kosher-eating conservative market big enough? Because I don't think most orthodox families are going to care. I care about price, quality, and reliability of the hashgacha (which, translates to "is it available in my local kosher stores").
Also, I read the article, and it seems that (as with many things the conservative movement does) its standards are so wishy-washy so as not to offend anyone.
I've also got to say, unlike the reform movement in which you can actually substitute liberal ideology for any real theological position, the conservative movement is much more diverse. What if someone keeps kosher and is anti-union? (There are Jews who don't believe that unionization is an unmitigated good.) They might be turned off by this seal.
I dunno. As a recovering Conservative Jew, I wish the movement did more to encourage regular observance, rather than trying to add an additional layer that actually is not mandated by halacha.
Impressions on the blogosphere aside, the Conservative demographic group is about 4x the Orthodox one. So if 26% of the Conservative group keep Kosher homes, and 75% of Orthodox ones do, then the Conservative Kosher market is approximately 60% of the market... There is no way 100% of Orthodox homes are Kosher, since I know people that associate with Aish and/or Chabad (and would be counted demographically as Orthodox), not to mention traditional Israelis affiliated with an Orthodox Shul with plenty of non-Kosher products in the house.
I think that the Reform movement would be better positioned to push this, as a "Jewish-sounding" activity that is in line with their predominately liberal positions (pro Union, family leave policy, other nonsense) would no doubt be very popular there. Especially because they would send out newsletters with goals of (buy 1 product a week with this, then 2).
The Conservative movement has a VERY SMALL percentage of people ideologically with the "movement," it's mostly people that don't like the Church-like Reform movement and aren't interested in Orthodoxy for various reasons.
Al, I don't dispute the demographic data, but your other numbers are completely wrong.
I doubt you can say that less than 90% of Orthodox affiliated families keep kosher, such that they would only buy food with hashgachot, and I think even that is on the low side. I know plenty of "fringe" type families, and the only question really comes up with which hashgachot matter.
And 26% of conservative-affiliated families keeping kosher is ridiculously high. I grew up conservative. If you don't count the rabbi's family, there were about 30 families in my synagogue that kept even a pretense of kashrut out of probably 400 or so, and we were a "traditional" conservative shul.
Kashrut is an orthodox market, full stop. If it weren't, why aren't their conservative hashgachot already? (and circle c doesn't count!)
To respond to Jdub, there's never been a "conservative" hecksher because until quite recently (within the last two years?) there was absolutely no need. With regard to the rules of kashrut (not observance), with very limited exceptions, there is no orthodox vs. conservative. Yes, I'm sensitive to smaller subgroups preferring or insisting on one supervision over another, but the scope is rather narrow.
Much to my disappointment as an active member of a conservative shul, and one who maintains a kosher home, the magen tzedek concept has nothing to do with kashrut and everything to do with the secularization of a religious movement by imposing political standards where none are necessary. Its part of the overall decline of the movement which, as you noted, has become less focused on religious observance and teaching and more on political correctness.
But, I think your estimate of those who keep kosher within the movement is low. But that's more a function of geography than shul membership. I have no doubt that a higher number of conservative families maintain kashrut at home in the greater east coast metroplex (ex. Highland Park/East Brunswick/Edison in NJ) than outside that realm.
Okay, let's start from the end and work our way up: JDub, please don't joke about circle c--you'd be surprised by the number of people who honestly don't know that circle c means "copyright," and is ***not**** an indication that a product is kosher! (I'm sorry I'm jumping up and down about this, but I've heard the circle c misinterpreted as a hechsher [symbol indicating that a product is kosher] as recently as roughly two months ago.) You know how the rabbis interpreted the biblical verse "lifnei iver lo titen michshol, in front of the blind person do not put a stumbling block--they said that that verse means that one shouldn't tempt or mislead a person into sinning by accident. In my opinion, joking about circle c is "lifnei iver."
I'd love to see some independent research regarding the percentages of Orthodox and Conservative Jews who keep kosher. The question of who's supporting the kosher food industry--the larger Conservative community or the more kashrut-committed Orthodox community--is certainly an interesting one, and the answer may be a major factor in determining whether Magen Tzedek will succeed.
Miami Al said, "I think that the Reform movement would be better positioned to push this, as a "Jewish-sounding" activity that is in line with their predominately liberal positions (pro Union, family leave policy, other nonsense) would no doubt be very popular there. Especially because they would send out newsletters with goals of (buy 1 product a week with this, then 2)."
I wonder whether the presence of a "justice seal" would encourage those among the Reform and other movements and unaffiliated Jews who did not previously buy kosher food to buy kosher food, and whether that possibility might sway anyone in the kosher food industry to seek Magen David certification in order to increase their market share.
"The Conservative movement has a VERY SMALL percentage of people ideologically with the "movement," it's mostly people that don't like the Church-like Reform movement and aren't interested in Orthodoxy for various reasons." Miami Al, I agree. Over thirty years ago, when I first joined a synagogue that was affiliated with both the Conservative and Reconstructionist Movements, one of the jokes making the rounds of the congregation was that "Reconstructionism is Judaism for Reform Jews who wouldn't set foot in Temple Emanuel." I think the same can be said for a hefty percentage of Conservative Jews, as well.
That's what I get for taking a hundred years to write and edit a comment--Too Old to Jewschool Steve snuck one in while I was still composing my tome. :)
I agree that Conservative standards are close enough to Orthodox ones that there's little point in having a separate hechsher for Conservative Jews.
I also think you're probably right in saying that geography plays a big part in kashrut observance, in that it's much easier to keep kosher when the nearest kosher butcher is within easy commuting distance. (A certain blogger once complained that the Conservative Movement's relatively recent ruling forbidding us to eat hot and/or cooked food in non-kosher restaurants is not fair to people for whom the nearest kosher restaurant is an eight-hour drive away--in each direction.) I freely admit that I switched to buying cheese with a hechsher, even though the Conservative Movement says that all US-made cheeses are kosher, partly because kosher cheese is available by subway, and it seems right to me to support kosher businesses. If I were living in an area in which I'd have to drive three hours to get cheese with a hechsher, I wouldn't buy only hechshered cheese.
"Much to my disappointment as an active member of a conservative shul, and one who maintains a kosher home, the magen tzedek concept has nothing to do with kashrut and everything to do with the secularization of a religious movement by imposing political standards where none are necessary."
*Political* standards? I see this as an issue of ethics, not politics. And if these standards had been upheld, that whole disgraceful mess at the AgriProcessors kosher meat processing plant would never have happened. So I wouldn't say that these standards aren't necessary.
"Its part of the overall decline of the movement which, as you noted, has become less focused on religious observance and teaching and more on political correctness."
Now *there's* some food for thought. And a rather distressing thought it is. I'll have to give your assertion some consideration.
We already are paying a double premium by buying our meat through KOL (Kosher Organic Local) a co-op that sells meat from roughly Baltimore to Central NJ.
I'll wait and see what the Magen Tzedek certifies, and what they require of those companies, before making a final judgement. I support ethical treatment of employees, but I'm not sure that MT has chosen the best way to support that goal.
I've actually been surprised to notice over the past couple of years the growing number of Conservative hecksher organizations. They aren't national in scope but local. In East Brunswick NJ there is a deli certified by the local C rabbi. They serve Hebrew National, which most Orthodox people won't eat, despite (or in part because of) the Triangle K certification. Several veggie restaurants in Philadelphia are certified by the Conservative Vaad Harabonim. Out on Long Island, a local bagel shop switched to being certified by the local C rabbi so they could serve both dairy and meat (not together, obviously), which the prior O agency would not permit. Perhaps the most famous C hecksher is the one given to Commack Meats.
"I'll wait and see what the Magen Tzedek certifies, and what they require of those companies, before making a final judgement. I support ethical treatment of employees, but I'm not sure that MT has chosen the best way to support that goal."
Fair enough.
"Out on Long Island, a local bagel shop switched to being certified by the local C rabbi so they could serve both dairy and meat (not together, obviously), which the prior O agency would not permit." I haven't seen a restaurant like that in maybe 30 years. Believe it or not, there used to be a kosher fast-food restaurent on 46th St. in the "Diamond District" in Manhattan (which is home to many Orthodox-owned jewelry businesses) that served dairy along one wall and meat along another. The OU-supervised Mendy's in Grand Central Station comes closest, but they have an actual physical barrier between their deli (meat) booth and their "appetizing" (dairy) booth. I can't imagine how serving meat and dairy in a sit-down restaurant could possibly be kosher, but, even if this bagel shop is a take-out establishment, I would think that "lifnei iver" (roughly, the law against misleading the ignorant into sinning by accident) might apply.
One description of the establishment (along with other ones) can be found in The Jewish Week.
As recently as a couple of years ago the Vaad of New Haven certified a meat/dairy restaurant. Just as with Mendy's the two areas were physically kept apart, in this case on opposite sides of the store. Moving from one to another could not be done behind the counter, you had to come out onto the floor, IIRC.
In the TV show I saw about the Bagel Boss mentioned in the article above, the reporter mentioned you couldn't order a roast beef and cheese sandwich, but if you stood in one line and ordered a roast beef sandwich, and then stood on the other line and ordered two slices of cheese, no one in the store would stop you from putting them together and eating them in the store. I assume they use only disposable cutlery and plates. I think I wouldn't feel comfortable eating in such a place, but I did eat at the place in New Haven.
The other big factors favoring C hashgacha are much lower cost and the ability to use non-Glatt meat. I don't know of any C certified diary only restaurant (probably because most O authorities don't require a full time mashgiach for such places) but I'd be interested to see if they allowed the use of unsupervised cheeses.
It's a shame that the cost of rabbinical supervision has become such a problem.
Larry's point is well-taken, although I was focusing on institutional hecksherim. There are places all over with some individual rabbi's supervision, and conservative rabbi supervision is routinely more relaxed. Hence, the local place Larry refers to (by the way, Larry, its in Milltown, not E.B., a fact that had some significance when the partners opened that store)with supervision by a local c cong's former rabbi, is open on shabbat.
But from a more macro point of view, there really is no justification for a "c" heksher. Kashrut is fundamentally nondenominational. Something either is, or is not, kosher. Some may be more stringent on specific foods.
Shira, I don't disapprove of stressing ethics, particularly in the context of observance. But, my sense from following the discussion about MT, since its first presentation -- and the Shefa list has devoted much time to this topic -- is that the application is highly subjective. When issues of unionization become a factor, we've based beyond purely religious ethics to taking a position, unnecessarily, on political issues.
:There are places all over with some individual rabbi's supervision, . . . " So I guess everyone has to decide who's supervision they're going to accept, no matter where they go.
"When issues of unionization become a factor, we've based beyond purely religious ethics to taking a position, unnecessarily, on political issues."
To be honest, I've never thought of unionization as a political issue, but perhaps that's because my father, during his working years, was a union man. So I guess I'm biased.
I should probably clarify my previous comment: I've always thought of unionization as an economic issue. But I've been known to be naive.
Hence, the local place Larry refers to [deletions] with supervision by a local c cong's former rabbi, is open on shabbat.
So is the Highland Park Dunkin Donuts and the non-chain HP ice cream store, both of which are supervised by the Orthodox Vaad Harabonim of Raritan Valley.
Given that the OU routinely accepts payment for certifying products that are intrinsically kosher (spring water, paper towels, etc.) I wonder if some C organization would hecksher cheese with the same level of minimal(*) supervision that the OU gives 'intrinsically kosher' products.
(*) minimal does not mean no supervision - according to a speaker from the OU if you get OU supervision for paper towels they will come and and look at the plant and be persnickity even about irrelevant details like if the machines are greased with animal fat or the like).
Oh and the HP Carvel Ice Cream store (Here in HP we do love our ice cream) is supervised by the Kof-K and is also open on Shabbat and Yamim Tovim. It is a hoot to buy an ice cream there and have the non-Jewish immigrant store owner wish me "Gmar Tov" in a Chinese accent.
I'm getting hungry just thinking about ice cream. :)
Let me correct that joke that I somehow managed to turn inside out: At our former Conservative/Recontructionist synagogue, we used to say that "Recontructionism is Reform Judaism for Jews who wouldn't set foot in Temple Emanuel." The joke makes a bit more sense when one tells it correctly.
G'mar chatima tovah (roughly, may you be sealed [in the Book of Life] for a good year)!
I think the primary market for the MT is Jews who dont' necessarily keep strict kosher, or who might not even keep kosher at all, but who buy fair trade coffee, belong to food co-ops and CSAs, and are part of the new Jewish food movement. Those folks have already shown that they are willing to pay more to eat in accordance with their values.
Rejewvenator, you may be right about that. It would be delightfully ironic if the Magen Tzedek ended up encouraging more people to buy kosher food, thus bringing kashrut in through the back door.
rejewvenator, Agreed, that's why I think the Reform movement is the more natural partner for this. As they wouldn't get bogged down in pesky details like requiring the organization to be Kosher... :)
In fact, the MOST unfortunate thing is that this is being pushed by the "Conservative Movement," because a more dysfunctional entity you can't find in Judaism... :) Most useful would be to hook up with one of the West Coast Kashrut groups where this would be a natural fit. Then you could back-door it into the Orthodox World has a hecture,
According to reports in the press, I've seen between 25% and 30% of Conservative Jews maintain that they maintain some degree of Kashrut.
Jdub, you're insane if you really think over 90% of Orthodox Jews (demographic term: affiliated or self identity with an Orthodox designated Shul) keep Kosher. The only Synagogue in Palm Beach Island is Orthodox affiliated, but almost none of their members are what you would consider Orthodox, same thing with other ritzy areas that historically prohibited property ownership by Jews (by law, restricted covenant, or social expectations). Chabad's usually serve a non-observant clientelle, which may or may not keep Kosher, but are counted demographically as Orthodox.
A Sephardic Beit Knesset will almost always be considered "Orthodox" for population studies since the leadership identifies it as such, but most of the population is all over the place on the identification side. We always have to check candies in goodie bags our kids bring home, since many Israelis don't think to check hecture on non-meat products.
"Most useful would be to hook up with one of the West Coast Kashrut groups where this would be a natural fit. Then you could back-door it into the Orthodox World has a hecture [hechsher?]" That's a practical approach, in some ways, but it does deprive my own Conservative crew of credit where it's due. Not everything having to do with social justice has to come from the Reform, ya know. As for your wisecrack about the Conservative Movement being a "dysfunctional entity," . . . Sigh. In all honesty, I'm not sure you're wrong, but must you rub it in? :(
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